Curse

Aigred · Dec 03, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

This has been on my mind for quite a while now actually, ever since I first met the Obsidian Flame spike team in Zaishen Challenge.

Obviously, ANet knows how to design an AI team that can do coordinated spikes, but nowhere else in the game have they used this feature. Similarly, you don't often see the kind of prompt res signet usage that the Zaishen Challenge NPCs do.

I think that adding more spike groups and faster enemy ressing would be a low-cost way to improve the difficulty of PvE.

And like player spikes, they should come in a variety of flavors to encourage different counters:
- Some of them should be imperfect half-second spikes so that they are Infusible. Perfect spikes are OK too, because you can still interrupt them or go massive pressure to drop the spikers before they take out too many of your own team. Naturally, the enemy team should make liberal use of res signets, like they do in Zaisen Challenge, to get their own spikers back up ASAP.
- All the spikes with casting time > 1 second would encourage use of interrupts to defeat the spike.
- Air Spike and Obsidian Spike would teach use of pre-casting Prot Spirit on likely targets.
- Ranger Spike would encourage the use of blinds and evade/block enchants, stances, and shouts.
- Blood Spike would teach that you can't prot against life-stealing, and encourage interrupts, especially AE interrupts like Cry of Frustration.
- Air Spike, Feast of Corruption spike, or Oppressive Gaze spike would also teach you to look for the telltale hex or condition on the spike target, and also quickly remove the condition or hex to neuter the spike.
- Feast of Corruption or Oppressive Gaze spike would teach you how to not bunch up.

Even within a class of spike group, there is room for a range of difficulty levels. You could have the easy Zaishen Challenge style Obs spike, or you could make them E/Me and give them Mantra of Resolve and Ward of Stability to make it harder to counter.

I realize that spike groups might be too difficult for many PuGs to handle, and I have confirmed that Heros do not know how to use Infuse Health or Divine Intervention properly vs spike. Therefore, my suggestion would be to add enemy spike teams as part of quests marked as "Difficulty: Master" or to include them in the "elite" PvE areas such as the new Domain of Anguish. I am not far enough through NF yet to try DoA myself, but from what I hear, much of the challenge comes from the big numbers approach: lots of mobs with high levels. Having lower level mobs that spike instead would be one good way to add variety.

Malice Black · Dec 03, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I would but after reading a certain thread I don't think a lot of people are up to it.

milias · Dec 03, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I believe they already have Ranger and Elementalist spikes in PvE in Nightfall.

Zinger314 · Dec 03, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Have you tried the Domain of Anguish recently. It's basically a Spike Team.

Then again, does it count as a spike if you die on one hit anyways?

Kha · Dec 03, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

All of Nightfall has mobs that spike. The precision of AI coordination > human reaction, so it's not exactly something I think should be encouraged in future chapters.

milias · Dec 04, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

All of Nightfall has mobs that spike. The precision of AI coordination > human reaction, so it's not exactly something I think should be encouraged in future chapters.

I think ANet may be trying to train us for PvP in PvE end-game areas

Avarre · Dec 04, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Then again, does it count as a spike if you die on one hit anyways?

You know, there's no real reason to run less than 550~ health in PvE anymore.

The closest thing to an actual spike I've seen are the outcast rangers in the no_cast room of the Deep, that use needling shot in near perfect timing. The problem with a full spike group in PvE is with monster damage buffs from levels, an AI timed spike is more than likely to be perfect and uncatchable. No average or even above average PuG is going to be able to disrupt a spike consistantly, so it will just cause frustration..

Evilsod · Dec 04, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

The enemies can spike perfectly well as they are. Not even a few hours ago i had henchman killed about 8 times in a single fight before i had to flee by a group of Kournan Bowman on the Consulate Docks mission. The spikes weren't perfect but they were definatly focus firing and doing it quickly.

Its bad enough as it is without giving enemies even more finely tuned spike builds.

Manic Smile · Dec 04, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

I would but after reading a certain thread I don't think a lot of people are up to it.

we talking lvl 20 spike or 9 lvl 28 spiking for 500 dmg each?

Elruid · Dec 04, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Ever since Factions the mobs have had a tendency towards spiking.
They have professed in this regard even more in Nightfall.
And yeah, DOA, Dead on arrival, the worst.

Every PvE spike has been a spike in frustration for me.

Omega X · Dec 04, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

I believe they already have Ranger and Elementalist spikes in PvE in Nightfall.

You are correct.

I've seen them many times. Especially the Kournan Rangers. God I hate them...

*Darcy* · Dec 04, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Personally, I would like to know what those Kournan Bowmen have for armor. They are harder to kill than the Guards (warriors).

Dervish, hammer war, 5 minions took forever to kill one. Does their Whirling Defense last longer than ours?

/not signed for more spike teams

Thallandor · Dec 04, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Play a monk in Realm of Torment, then come tell us if there are spike teams in the PvE game.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Dec 04, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aigred

This has been on my mind for quite a while now actually, ever since I first met the Obsidian Flame spike team in Zaishen Challenge.

Obviously, ANet knows how to design an AI team that can do coordinated spikes, but nowhere else in the game have they used this feature. Similarly, you don't often see the kind of prompt res signet usage that the Zaishen Challenge NPCs do.

I think that adding more spike groups and faster enemy ressing would be a low-cost way to improve the difficulty of PvE.

And like player spikes, they should come in a variety of flavors to encourage different counters:
- Some of them should be imperfect half-second spikes so that they are Infusible. Perfect spikes are OK too, because you can still interrupt them or go massive pressure to drop the spikers before they take out too many of your own team. Naturally, the enemy team should make liberal use of res signets, like they do in Zaisen Challenge, to get their own spikers back up ASAP.
- All the spikes with casting time > 1 second would encourage use of interrupts to defeat the spike.
- Air Spike and Obsidian Spike would teach use of pre-casting Prot Spirit on likely targets.
- Ranger Spike would encourage the use of blinds and evade/block enchants, stances, and shouts.
- Blood Spike would teach that you can't prot against life-stealing, and encourage interrupts, especially AE interrupts like Cry of Frustration.
- Air Spike, Feast of Corruption spike, or Oppressive Gaze spike would also teach you to look for the telltale hex or condition on the spike target, and also quickly remove the condition or hex to neuter the spike.
- Feast of Corruption or Oppressive Gaze spike would teach you how to not bunch up.

Even within a class of spike group, there is room for a range of difficulty levels. You could have the easy Zaishen Challenge style Obs spike, or you could make them E/Me and give them Mantra of Resolve and Ward of Stability to make it harder to counter.

I realize that spike groups might be too difficult for many PuGs to handle, and I have confirmed that Heros do not know how to use Infuse Health or Divine Intervention properly vs spike. Therefore, my suggestion would be to add enemy spike teams as part of quests marked as "Difficulty: Master" or to include them in the "elite" PvE areas such as the new Domain of Anguish. I am not far enough through NF yet to try DoA myself, but from what I hear, much of the challenge comes from the big numbers approach: lots of mobs with high levels. Having lower level mobs that spike instead would be one good way to add variety.

I completely agree. I believe it would be incredibly fun. Everytime I'm playing the zaishan elite and there are 5+ of those elementalist, I know I'm going to die. (If I really wanted to, I could target the people of my team and get prot spirit on everyone, but I'm too lazy for that, and enjoy challenging myself every now and again)

Priest Of Sin · Dec 04, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

If there were spike mobs in PvE, I think you'd bring back the E/Mo bonder.

But really, would you want to PLAY through that? AI Interruptions are already on crack or something, because I had my Watch Yourself! shout interrupted with Savage Shot. I'd never had a shout interrupted before, and quite frankly I was scared.

- Tain - · Dec 04, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

because I had my Watch Yourself! shout interrupted with Savage Shot

that is quite literally impossible.. shouts don't have an activation, and cannot be interrupted

«Ripskin · Dec 04, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

No. Spiking is for pvp.

Priest Of Sin · Dec 04, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

that is quite literally impossible.. shouts don't have an activation, and cannot be interrupted

I shouldve taken a screenie... my Watch Yourself! was on recharge (as in disabled for X seconds), and the only attack on my "You got hit by" bar was Barrage and Savage Shot.

Aigred · Dec 04, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The closest thing to an actual spike I've seen are the outcast rangers in the no_cast room of the Deep, that use needling shot in near perfect timing. The problem with a full spike group in PvE is with monster damage buffs from levels, an AI timed spike is more than likely to be perfect and uncatchable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

The precision of AI coordination > human reaction, so it's not exactly something I think should be encouraged in future chapters.

It is, of course, unfair for the AI to do a perfectly timed spike. ANet understood this when they designed the Zaishen Obs Flame team. If you watch the Obs Flame eles, you will notice that they consistently and deliberately do an imperfect spike every time. One of the elementalists will always start casting roughly a half second before or after the rest of the team. This makes it more human, and gives you a choice as to how you want to deal with it. You can use Infuse Health, or you can use shutdown.

If there were high-level spiker mobs, then the damage would need to be tuned so that using the same imperfect timing approach, the spike would still fail if 1 or 2 of the contributions failed. Level 20 mobs would use 4-man obs spike, but maybe level 24 mobs would use only 3-man. Or you could have a level 20 group in a mainly level 24 area. There are various combinations that would make it manageable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

All of Nightfall has mobs that spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elruid

Ever since Factions the mobs have had a tendency towards spiking.
They have professed in this regard even more in Nightfall.

I hope I'm just not far enough in NF to see it yet. I have played up to the Kourna area and so far have not seen anything that I'd consider a deliberately coordinated spike. I haven't seen the Kournan rangers spike either. It doesn't count if the wammo ran off by himself and was the only available target.

I've finished Factions, but I don't remember seeing any multi-participant spikes there either. When I say spike, I'm not talking about a single boss doing 400 damage to a single target or even to an area-of-effect (although I do enjoy that mechanic and want to see it continue). A single huge hit (eg., level 28 ele boss lightning orb) doesn't require the same kind of approach as when there are a few slightly large hits (4 obs flame spikers) or many many small hits (4-ranger spike with Orders) from different sources.

Maybe I should clarify what I mean when I say spike.
Sure, mobs will sometimes focus fire a single target, and that's good, but focus firing by itself is not what I'm asking for, since that already happens reasonably often.
Rather, I'm specifically referring to a sequence of hits that all arrive in 1 second or less, where if every hit lands, it would be sufficient to kill an unbuffed, full-normal-health, non-DPed player party member. And the enemy team should use this sequence repeatably and deliberately, not by fluke because their skill timers all happened to coincide at a particular moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

No average or even above average PuG is going to be able to disrupt a spike consistantly, so it will just cause frustration..

I agree, but I do want to stress that I'm not asking for spikes everywhere, all the time, but just in optional non-critical path areas such as Mission Bonuses, Master difficulty quests, and post-final-mission content. Would the posters in this thread still object to having spikes in parts of the game that are meant to be difficult and optional?

Carth` · Dec 04, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

There already are spike teams in PvE. The AI has the same AI as each other, so they frequently all change target at the same time. I see people instantly dead loads, and down the left of the screen are 2 Shatter Enchantments, a Lightning Hammer and 2 Fireballs, all of which happened in the last 1 second.

There are also quite a few places in NF where there are 6 or more rangers and they all attack someone with an attack skill. Devona runs in and is dead before she gets there.